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Rob
11-10-2008, 07:23 PM
How can President-elect Barack Obama best help the auto industry?

mswaim
11-10-2008, 07:31 PM
Promise a huge bailout; one condition - No More UAW!

Bust it up; make them all re-apply for their jobs with reasonable, livable wages coupled to incentives for production quality and penalties for lack thereof.

b_pappy
11-10-2008, 08:49 PM
No option for all the above. I dislike stiff tariffs, but it's never been a level playing field exporting a vehicle to Japan either. Yes, the UAW has long outlived its usefulness, and they are part of the problem also. But then I really don't think any pro ball player is worth anywhere near what they earn. I could climb up on my "Buy American, before it's Bye American" soap box, but I'll leave my comments at this for now.
Bruce

mswaim
11-10-2008, 11:36 PM
Get no arguement here. I personally think pro atheletes are over-paid a$$wipes in dire need of a wakeup call, but let's face it - Americans love to hero worship, and the crack smoking, wife beating, drunk driving, tax evading, homicidal, score fixing sport heroes fill the bill. :dunno:

standby-V
11-11-2008, 01:02 AM
Mervyn's out, now Linen and Things is done, many small stores are closing their doors in the malls..............This is going to get really ugly.
I'm stocking up on peanut butter & jelly and beans and hot dogs and a few cases of Chateau La Fete Rothschild 1971 & some good soft cheese.


Get no arguement here. I personally think pro atheletes are over-paid a$$wipes in dire need of a wakeup call, but let's face it - Americans love to hero worship, and the crack smoking, wife beating, drunk driving, tax evading, homicidal, score fixing sport heroes fill the bill. :dunno:

PassionDiva5150
11-11-2008, 01:46 AM
Mervyn's out, now Linen and Things is done, many small stores are closing their doors in the malls..............This is going to get really ugly.
I'm stocking up on peanut butter & jelly and beans and hot dogs and a few cases of Chateau La Fete Rothschild 1971 & some good soft cheese.

I argee, I hate that we are losing all these stores, and you are right, it is only going to get worse :pat::pat::pat:

Lola's Mom
11-11-2008, 02:27 AM
I'm thinking the US can't wait for Obama to help the automotive industry - it absolutlely needs a bail-out now - it is the heart of our country and if it melts down, so goes the USA.

First Robin
11-11-2008, 08:28 AM
I didn't find anything in the poll I could vote for. If the gov't bails out the auto industry, it is my understanding we the people will then have part ownership. We as a govenrment now own part of Fannie and Freddie, some banks, AIG and other insurance companies. I believe our elected officials need to read our Constitution as all of this is strictly prohibited. This entire mess goes right back to the Clinton administration when they deregulated the banks and insurance companies. Next they wanted everyone to own their own home regardless of where they were on the pay scale. They gave mortgages out right and left to people that couldn't afford to make the payments. As a result of all their blundering we the people are in tremendous debt to China, Japan, England and only God know who else because our elected ones lie to us all the time. Our country has given away everything we had to all the other countries in the world. How can you be sending aid when you have to borrow the money to do it???? Yes, it is going to get worse, this is only the tip of the iceberg, we are sinking further and further down in world standing, the interest we are paying these other countries is astronomical, we will never be able to climb out of this hole. If all of this doesn't smack of Socialism then I don't know what does. I am tired of slick tongues, money from other countries being shipped in to buy the elections and now the President Elect is going to wave a magic wand and make everything peaches and cream. Guess the peaches and cream will go good with Standby's peanut butter and jelly. Guess I better get off my soap box too.:bash::bash::bash::bash::bash: First Robin:patriot:

First Robin
11-11-2008, 09:02 AM
FYI: Japan $585.9 Billion China $541 Billion United Kingdom $307.4 Billion OPEC Natons $179.8 Billion Caribbean banking centers $147.7 Billion. Added up that is $1,466.9 Trillion. OPEC Nations we owe money to include: Algeria, Angola, Ecuador, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq,, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, U.A.E. and Venezuela. Caribbean banking centers include: Bahamas, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Netherlands Antilles, Panama, and British Virgin Islands. Source: U.S. Department of the Treasury/Federal Reserve. For a complete list of U.S. creditors, visit Parade.com/intel Just thought this would give you a better idea of the BLACK HOLE we are in. :squint::squint::squint::squint::squint: First Robin:patriot:

Deluxe
11-11-2008, 09:12 AM
Allow them to reorganize themselves more efficiently through bankruptcy. The airlines do it all the time.

A bailout or any thing we do to prop them up will do nothing to force them to improve. Bankruptcy also provides an opportunity to deal with the unions in a realistic way.

First Robin
11-11-2008, 09:47 AM
Allow them to reorganize themselves more efficiently through bankruptcy. The airlines do it all the time.

A bailout or any thing we do to prop them up will do nothing to force them to improve. Bankruptcy also provides an opportunity to deal with the unions in a realistic way.

Who are these core employees making $71.00 an hour? Do you realize that amounts to $2,840 per week times 52 weeks equals $147,680.00 per year? Almost as much as a United States Senator makes. WOW, wish I could have had a job like that, maybe I wouldn't have retired when I was 37. So 37 years times $147,680 = $5,464,160.00. The UAW takes pretty good care of hourly core employees at GM!!!!!! Yes, GM does need to re-negotiate wages with the union. Never was a fan of unions, at one time they were needed but are they really needed now? First Robin:patriot:

cubby558
11-11-2008, 09:55 AM
Allow them to reorganize themselves more efficiently through bankruptcy. The airlines do it all the time.

A bailout or any thing we do to prop them up will do nothing to force them to improve. Bankruptcy also provides an opportunity to deal with the unions in a realistic way.


I agree!!! There is no reason GM needs to be making the same car under the Pontiac, Buick, Chevrolet monikers. They need to consolidate and get the UAW back to reality. As mswaim said, pay them based on performance and quality--maybe then the deadbeats that the UAW protect would be weeded out.

Little Woman
11-11-2008, 10:40 AM
No option for all the above. I dislike stiff tariffs, but it's never been a level playing field exporting a vehicle to Japan either. Yes, the UAW has long outlived its usefulness, and they are part of the problem also. But then I really don't think any pro ball player is worth anywhere near what they earn. I could climb up on my "Buy American, before it's Bye American" soap box, but I'll leave my comments at this for now.
Bruce

I agree with Bruce, but I will get on that Buy American soap box. We need to start supporting the American industry before it is no longer here. It is going to be terrible if US loses our automotive industry.

XLR-V Lover
11-11-2008, 11:11 AM
That $71.00 per hour is not in their paychecks, it's the total of all benefits. Most are making in the $30.00 per hour range paycheck wise. A decent amount but not really much over the top these days. The union should give back some of the bennies, that's where the auto companies are bleeding profusely. IMHO.

Floyd (BB)

cubby558
11-11-2008, 11:24 AM
That $71.00 per hour is not in their paychecks, it's the total of all benefits. Most are making in the $30.00 per hour range paycheck wise. A decent amount but not really much over the top these days. The union should give back some of the bennies, that's where the auto companies are bleeding profusely. IMHO.

Floyd (BB)


You are correct Floyd. There is no reason a retired UAW worker should get 95% of what they made working. The auto industry is just like the steel industry--more people retired than working. Not enough people to pay for the luxurious benefits.

mswaim
11-11-2008, 11:44 AM
New numbers posted this week show the average cost of a GM line employee was $81.18 in 2006. In February 2008 after their offer to buyout 74,000 employees, that number dropped to $78.21 per hour overall cost.

I agree that number does not represent take home wages - it does reflect Their total benefit package though and its cost to GM. When passed on to the consumer, they estimate it adds $1,600 to the price of each automobile.

In today's world, $30 an hour is a very livable wage for some person who stands on a line plugging in bolts, plugs, screws, etc. The average assembly line job does not require a colllege degree and as such should not pay any more than 25-45% above the minimum wage even in a union environment. The wages paid to UAW members is nothing less than criminal.

Minimum education = minimum wage unless you possess splinter skills others do not have. If that is the case, the free market should dictate your wage.

On the other side is Toyota, whose non-union american employees earn a total of $35 an hour, which calculates out to about $600 per car passed to the consumer - giving Toyota a $1,000 advantage from the gitgo.

Lola's Mom
11-11-2008, 02:35 PM
In today's world, $30 an hour is a very livable wage for some person who stands on a line plugging in bolts, plugs, screws, etc. The average assembly line job does not require a college degree and as such should not pay any more than 25-45% above the minimum wage even in a union environment. The wages paid to UAW members is nothing less than criminal.

Gonna have our first :love: disagreement on this one..... I probably would have agreed with you at one time .... not now. Since we have retired, our health benefits are no longer provided for us (40 years in city & county law enforcement agencies ... you'd think it would, huh?) and the 2009 renewal for an HMO is going to cost us $1,300/mo. Depending on where you live determines your COL .... our retirement program is now worth virtually 50% of what is was 3 years ago.

The majority of people still need a group to advocate for them - You are right - not everyone has a college degree, or an administrative job or knows how to advocate for themselves - the majority of our nation does something similar to "The average assembly line job" - it doesn't take a higher education to do that - but those occupations have real people, with real families who need fair wages to live a decent life. And we need them to do the job. Most of them have have little left over to invest or save - and those of us who have and did - well look, we've lost 28% investing in our own economy ...

I certainly don't have a clue how to solve this crisis that we are in - I just know that people from California are heading east in U-Hauls with children and pets trying to find more affordable homes - but when they are getting there they are finding the same things waiting for them.

You all are right.

We are in a big mess.

I guess we should all pray for a miracle, because I think that is the only thing that will fix this.

First Robin
11-11-2008, 03:01 PM
Heard on the news earlier this morning that if the auto manufactures file for bankruptcy people won't buy their products because they won't have confidence in them. The airlines file for bankruptcy and people still fly on those airlines so does that make sence? When I was growing up I was taught to believe that we must provide for ourselves, it is not the job of the government to provide for us. If you started out sweeping floors at Caterpillar Tractor Company and you wanted more money then you went back to school and learned more so you could get a promotion. That is how it is supposed to work. My uncle that was a VP of Cat went through an apprentice program and worked his way up the ladder by going to school and getting a better education. When everything is given to everybody by the government then we are truly Socialism which is just about where our country is today. We just had an item on the ballot that unfortunately was voted down that would have eliminated mandatory union membership. My father never required his workmen to belong to the union and he always paid more than union wages but that is when we lived in a free country. First Robin :patriot:

mswaim
11-11-2008, 03:16 PM
We will have to agree to disagree. While I see your point, there is no difference between a factory worker in Detroit and a clerk at Walmart. They both work hard, they both should be entitled to a livable wage and a full benefit program........but we both know if that was the case and they were both members of a collective bargaining unit we would no longer be able to afford to shop at walmart either! The bottom line is; the bagaining efforts of the UAW have come home to roost - they now need to reap what they have sowed. :reddevil

We live in a society where we control our own destiny. If we wish a better lot in life we need to make that happen, not hope Obama or someone else will level the playing fields for us.

And believe me, my retirement program is much like yours, so all I can do at this point is keep working! :dunno: my a$$ off until I drop.

Lola's Mom
11-11-2008, 05:23 PM
'Don't think it is specifically an organized union that I think about .... as much as well-led collaboratives. Again -- I am pretty much a fence-sitter on unions .... since my dad was a member of one his entire life - I saw the benefits they provided for us in the 50's and early 60's ..... that was before some union leaders started wearing cement shoes. :squint:

Robin .... if everyone worked their way up, there wouldn't be anyone at the bottom. So ... who would you hire to do those jobs? That's probably where the alien argument could come in to play. Just how much should we pay someone to pick strawberries? Should they make enough to buy insurance, pay rent, raise a family?? Where there is a job opening there is a need for someone to fill it - it isn't always as easy as you make it sound to work your way up. Well, just listen to me ... lol ... you'd think I was a democrat! Or am I?? :rolleyes: :willy_nilly:

First Robin
11-11-2008, 05:48 PM
'Don't think it is specifically an organized union that I think about .... as much as well-led collaboratives. Again -- I am pretty much a fence-sitter on unions .... since my dad was a member of one his entire life - I saw the benefits they provided for us in the 50's and early 60's ..... that was before some union leaders started wearing cement shoes. :squint:

Robin .... if everyone worked their way up, there wouldn't be anyone at the bottom. So ... who would you hire to do those jobs? That's probably where the alien argument could come in to play. Just how much should we pay someone to pick strawberries? Should they make enough to buy insurance, pay rent, raise a family?? Where there is a job opening there is a need for someone to fill it - it isn't always as easy as you make it sound to work your way up. Well, just listen to me ... lol ... you'd think I was a democrat! Or am I?? :rolleyes: :willy_nilly:
That is where the next generation comes into play, they start at the bottom and work their way up and so on. That changed when the young people decided they wanted everything their parents had but didn't want to work for it. They want it NOW so they charged it on their credit cards and that is why we now hear that the average american household owes about $29,000.00 on credit cards. I know how hard it is to pay for insurance, my premiums were $690.90 per month for health insurance just for myself for several years prior to going on medicare at age 65. Now I pay $279.10 for my medicare supplement plus a lot of bucks for long term care plus my medicare premium. It really hurts to pay all of these premiums but it would hurt a lot worse if I didn't have insurance, 16 major operations so far and I have been living with an aoratic anurism for over three years. My medications cost me out of my pocket way over $500 per month but if I didn't buy them I wouldn't be walking. I just thank the good Lord I can buy them. I know what it is like to be poor, raising a family and trying to make ends meet, life hasn't always been easy for me but that is why I kept up with more education climbing up that proverbial ladder. Maybe that Donkey got inside of your Elephant exterior. LOL Would still love you even if you were a Democrate. I have lots of friends on both side of that fence.:wave::wave::wave: First Robin:patriot:

Lola's Mom
11-11-2008, 07:44 PM
Now you know why Ray would trade me for a good set of wheels - :laugh:

HOMEGAMEROOM
11-11-2008, 10:27 PM
Or at least a good set of run flats! :laugh::chuckle:laugh:

I'm sure the uncertainty of GM or Chrysler existing anymore in the future makes car buyers wary. I'm not sure I'd want to plunk down $XX,000 dollars for a car that might not have anyone to go to for warranty service.

I think the big problem with the US auto industry is that they had no motivation to build small fuel efficient vehicles when the American public kept buying big SUV's and so forth (yes, I also have an SUV, so I'm guilty as well). Most imported autos are headquartered in countries with very high taxes on gas, so they've been working on good fuel efficient vehicle for years.

But now that gas is cheap again, will we go back to our old ways?

standby-V
11-12-2008, 12:32 AM
There also built in Tennessee and Kentucky where that's a good deal of money, so why is GM paying out $81.18 in one of the same states. I bet their living high on the hog down thar. Sueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
New numbers posted this week show the average cost of a GM line employee was $81.18 in 2006. In February 2008 after their offer to buyout 74,000 employees, that number dropped to $78.21 per hour overall cost.

I agree that number does not represent take home wages - it does reflect Their total benefit package though and its cost to GM. When passed on to the consumer, they estimate it adds $1,600 to the price of each automobile.

In today's world, $30 an hour is a very livable wage for some person who stands on a line plugging in bolts, plugs, screws, etc. The average assembly line job does not require a colllege degree and as such should not pay any more than 25-45% above the minimum wage even in a union environment. The wages paid to UAW members is nothing less than criminal.

Minimum education = minimum wage unless you possess splinter skills others do not have. If that is the case, the free market should dictate your wage.

On the other side is Toyota, whose non-union american employees earn a total of $35 an hour, which calculates out to about $600 per car passed to the consumer - giving Toyota a $1,000 advantage from the gitgo.

standby-V
11-12-2008, 12:35 AM
Well I'm going to get up on the fence on RA and First Robin. I don't know how but they both have it right.

Popbigguy
11-12-2008, 01:47 AM
New numbers posted this week show the average cost of a GM line employee was $81.18 in 2006. In February 2008 after their offer to buyout 74,000 employees, that number dropped to $78.21 per hour overall cost.

I agree that number does not represent take home wages - it does reflect Their total benefit package though and its cost to GM. When passed on to the consumer, they estimate it adds $1,600 to the price of each automobile.

In today's world, $30 an hour is a very livable wage for some person who stands on a line plugging in bolts, plugs, screws, etc. The average assembly line job does not require a colllege degree and as such should not pay any more than 25-45% above the minimum wage even in a union environment. The wages paid to UAW members is nothing less than criminal.

Minimum education = minimum wage unless you possess splinter skills others do not have. If that is the case, the free market should dictate your wage.

On the other side is Toyota, whose non-union american employees earn a total of $35 an hour, which calculates out to about $600 per car passed to the consumer - giving Toyota a $1,000 advantage from the gitgo.

I been thinking about these numbers,,,,,,, Maybe I got it wrong, but I wouldnt want to work for Toyota!! From all the other posts, it's been said that GM workers get roughly $30/hr. and with benefits it cost GM $1,600 per car. Quoted here, Toyota workers get $35/hr ( more wages, good for them) but it costs Toyota only $600 per car. Where's the $1,000 per car difference fit in? Benefits? Pity the "poor" Toyota workers, they must get no benefits! How else can you get a $1,000/car cost difference while the Toyota workers getting paid more?

Could you imagine in this day and age having no health insurance, no retirement, no 401K matching funds, no holidays,buying your own safety equipment, or worse yet, no safety on the job, being fired because of the herina operation you were off work too long, having to work during your spouse, child, parents funeral because they'll fire you if you miss work, being force to work 10, 12 or even 16 hour days and 6 or 7 day work weeks, NO VACATIONS (that's part of the cost too)!!! I'm rattling on here,,, I could do more.


P.S.
You know, a lot of these benefits I just listed, are here for everybody, white and blue collar workers, because of unions.

standby-V
11-12-2008, 02:23 AM
Poppsy,
You got it right. I've been a union man for darn near all my life, except for a few ventures on my own and I still make a darn good living at it. When I couldn't climb poles and towers anymore my union came to my aid and fixed me up with what turned out to be a gravy job I have now.............Do I deserve it? Yes, I'm being paid for what I know now, not for what I do. I don't make $81.00 which include bennies, but I get darn close and when I work nights I get double time............again because of what I know.
A lot of companies wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for the unions. Anyone that bashes the union hasn't worked for them or had one of those crappy unions like law enforcement has and I could name many more that aren't worth paying dues for.
The unions came into exsistance when their was no safety in the work place, health benefits, decent days wage, sick leave, holidays off with pay, vacations.................Some people are just jealous and wish they had a good paying job which wasn't available back in the early 1900's. Lineman had a death rate of over 90 per cent until a man (wish I could remember his name) got tired of seeing his buddies die because they had no safety gear and started a union. These men used to wear felt caps which burn pretty quick when you stick your head into live wires.
Im done and I'm taking my soap box with me in case I need it again.

mswaim
11-12-2008, 02:53 AM
There is no evidence that the Toyota employees receive fewer benefits. The costs listed by GM cover thousands of retired and current employees collecting over-the-top benefits even when idled. The single largest draw on GM right now is funding the retirement plans they foolishly agreed to in good times.

Toyota on the other hand pays a reasonable wage with great benefits and comes out on top.

Also - while GM, Ford and Chrysler lay off their workforce, Toyota is not and is not planning on doing so. In fact, Toyota spends the down time providing training and career development classes to their workforce. They use the time to conduct PM on their plants, do cleanup - even do community cleanup projects. Anything to keep their workers active and focused.

Deluxe
11-12-2008, 09:27 AM
No matter how your dollars are scaled, the only thing that reliably and permanently affects living standards is productivity. The more efficient a company or an individual becomes, the higher standard of living they can enjoy.

First Robin
11-12-2008, 12:56 PM
No matter how your dollars are scaled, the only thing that reliably and permanently affects living standards is productivity. The more efficient a company or an individual becomes, the higher standard of living they can enjoy.

How true that is!!!!! First Robin:patriot: