Electrical Gremlins Appears dead

[HOMEGAMEROOM]

I don't think THEY should be poking around with a Tech II with that attitude and if they think a battery tender fried the electronics!

 

[arv09]

Is your car still under some sort of warranty? If so they are just trying to get out of covering it. If not I don't have a clue because you will be paying for everything anyway. I don't think I will give the dealer any info except it doesn't work when I have an issue.

 

[arv09]

How on earth could the battery tender be the problem? That is crazy.

 

[Stella]

UPDATE:
After a week the dealer still has no clue. Service writer said "I don't know what YOU did to it" "You should not be in poking around with a TECH2". I explained the Tech 2 is a diagnostic tool that was not connected until AFTER the fault.

They also said, We can't communicate with any of the modules except one. DUH, I told them that last Friday. The comment was made that I fried every module by hooking up my Batter Tender.

Why me? Sometimes I believe this dealer has a strange sense of humor and is trying to be funny. This is the same person that told me the shocks were coated with oil from the factory to keep them from rusting. Right before they replaced all 4.

They were curious about the signatures on the engine cover

Seems like the service people always like to point their fingers at the owner just because they are trying to fix it themselves. Now if they cause more problems in the process that's one thing but you were doing exactly what they would do.
Now about the battery tender. We had a storm about three weeks ago and the house tv wouldn't turn on the next day. After doing some investigating found the surge protected power strip was smoked. Replace the power strip and all was well. I thought about it and their was a lot of lightning the previous night. Now if your house gets zapped do you think the power could go through the tender and fry the cars modules. I'm not saying this might be your case I just wanted to know so I can get that outlet protected. Good luck with you fix.

 

[Phrede]

Seems like the service people always like to point their fingers at the owner just because they are trying to fix it themselves. Now if they cause more problems in the process that's one thing but you were doing exactly what they would do.
Now about the battery tender. We had a storm about three weeks ago and the house tv wouldn't turn on the next day. After doing some investigating found the surge protected power strip was smoked. Replace the power strip and all was well. I thought about it and their was a lot of lightning the previous night. Now if your house gets zapped do you think the power could go through the tender and fry the cars modules. I'm not saying this might be your case I just wanted to know so I can get that outlet protected. Good luck with you fix.

I suppose an electrical surge could cause it, but I think it is a remote possibility. There is no direct electrical path to the wall/house wiring (isolated by a transformer in the tender), the gauge of the lead wires, the huge capacitor filter effect of the battery. Never say never because a large enough surge will negate all those things.

In my case, there are much more fragile things that would have gone out with a surge and there is no other damage. BTW, I have a whole house protection device at the meter. It seems like everything electrical has a microprocessor any more.

I'm confident the answer will be interesting when found. I'm leaning towards some fault in ether the RCDLR or in the communication buses themselves.

 

[cubby558]

Battery Tender

I doubt the battery tender is your culprit Phrede. The battery tenders I have also have fuse protection in the battery leads, so the fuse will blow before any surge gets past. I'm leaning towards the RCDLR. I assume they tried putting the FOB in glove compartment slot to try and start the car. Is the communication through the Tech II with the ECM or the BCM? Hope they get it figured out for you.

 

[Phrede]

The only thing talking to the Tech2 is the BCM. It appears all the other modules require the ignition power to be on. Ie key on engine off state. I find it interesting that there is no communication with the RCDLR as it HAS to work with the power off.

Glad this happened in the off season.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[cubby558]

That is why I believe it to be the RCDLR, if it doesn't "see" any Fob's nothing else happens--no power to start car, etc.



This may be worth reading:

VEHICLE THEFT DETERRENT (VTD) DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION


Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) System

The theft deterrent system has been incorporated into the remote
control door lock receiver (RCDLR). The theft deterrent is provided
in order to prevent the vehicle operation if the correct key fob is
not used in order to start the vehicle. The ignition button is
pressed and the keyless entry antenna backup broadcasts a challenge
to the key fob. If the challenge is met, the key fob will transmit
via RF to the RCDLR to enable the vehicle to start. This is
accomplished by the RCDLR sending a fuel enable message to the
engine control module (ECM).

The design of the keyless access with push button start system is to
prevent vehicle theft by disabling the engine unless the correct key
fob is present when attempting to start the vehicle. The system is
similar in concept to the PASS-Key(R) III system. However, the
keyless access with push button start system eliminates the need for
a key; the key fob is considered to be the key. The components of
the keyless access with push button start system are as follows:

lThe start button
lThe #1-#4 key fobs
lThe keyless entry antenna backup
lThe body control module (BCM)
lThe RCDLR
lThe security telltale
lThe ECM


Start Button

The start button is located at the upper right side of the steering
column on the instrument panel. The start button is used to start
the vehicle engine, turn OFF the vehicle engine, put the vehicle in
accessory (ACC) mode or put the vehicle in RUN mode.

The start button signals the body control module (BCM) to ground the
Run\Crank control relay which will then feed power to the Crank
relay in the under hood fuse block. The BCM must also simultaneously
send a serial data message to the engine control module (ECM) to
ground the starter enable relay to allow power to the starter
solenoid and starter motor.


Key Fobs


The key fobs are not only used to passively or actively lock and
unlock the vehicle, they are also used to enable the vehicles engine
to be started. If the remote control door lock receiver (RCDLR) does
not receive a valid RF signal after the fob is challenged by the
keyless entry antenna backup, the RCDLR will not send a fuel enable
message to the engine control module. A NO FOB DETECTED message will
display on the driver information center (DIC).

When any one of the 4 allowable programmed key fobs are challenged
by the keyless entry antenna backup, by pressing the start button,
they will passively send a RF signal to the RCDLR. The RCDLR will
then send a serial data message to the engine control module (ECM)
to enable fuel so the vehicle's engine can be started.


Keyless Entry Antenna Backup

The keyless entry antenna backup is located in the glove box area.
It has a small pocket next to it where the key fob can be inserted
if the key fobs battery is dead, weak or the RF signal is being
jammed.

The purpose of the keyless entry antenna backup is to send a low
frequency RF challenge to a programmed key fob, inside the interior
of the vehicle, when the start button is pressed. The keyless entry
antenna backup is controlled by the remote control door lock
receiver (RCDLR).


Body Control Module (BCM)

IMPORTANT:The remote control door lock receiver (RCDLR) is not on
the GM LAN high speed bus, therefore the RCDLR and the
engine control module (ECM) must use the body control
module (BCM) as a gateway in order to communicate.

The BCM is located in the interior on the passenger side of the
vehicle. It can be accessed by pulling back the carpet in the
passenger foot area under the glove compartment. The BCM is a
multifunction module. The BCM is used in the vehicle theft deterrent
system as a gateway for the RCDLR to send a fuel enable message to
the ECM. The RCDLR is not on the GM LAN high speed bus. The RCDLR
will send a class 2 message through the BCM as a gateway to the ECM
to receive the fuel enable password.


Remote Control Door Lock Receiver (RCDLR)

IMPORTANT:The remote control door lock receiver (RCDLR) is not on
the GM LAN high speed bus, therefore the RCDLR and the
engine control module (ECM) must use the body control
module (BCM) as a gateway in order to communicate.

The RCDLR is a multifunction module located in the upper passenger
side of the dash panel. The RCDLR can be accessed by removing the
upper dash pad. The keyless entry antenna backup is controlled by
the RCDLR, along with 3 other low frequency antennas used for
passive vehicle entry, but not for the vehicle theft deterrent. The
RCDLR will send an AC voltage signal and provide ground to the
keyless entry antenna backup when the ignition button is pressed.
This will enable the keyless entry antenna backup to send out the
low frequency broadcast challenge to a key fob in range. The RCDLR
also has an internal RF antenna to receive the key fobs passively or
actively sent signal. The RCDLR is the module responsible for
sending the fuel enable serial data message, if all the vehicle
theft deterrent requirements are met.


SECURITY Telltale

The SECURITY telltale appears on the instrument cluster. If the
SECURITY telltale flashes or if the SECURITY telltale lights
continuously during the vehicle operation, there is a problem with
the vehicle theft deterrent system and it should be serviced by the
dealer. The SECURITY telltale is a dual purpose indicator, and with
the ignition OFF, it is controlled by the content theft deterrent
system. With the ignition ON it is controlled by the vehicle theft
deterrent system.


Engine Control Module (ECM)

IMPORTANT:The remote control door lock receiver (RCDLR) is not on
the GM LAN high speed bus, therefore the RCDLR and the
engine control module (ECM) must use the body control
module (BCM) as a gateway in order to communicate.

The ECM communicates with the BCM and the RCDLR over the serial data
line. When the RCDLR determines a no start condition, it sends a
serial data password XXXXX the ECM in order to disable the starting
system. If the RCDLR receives a valid key fob RF transmitted
frequency, the RCDLR sends a serial data password XXXXX the ECM in
order to enable the starting system. The ECM then allows the vehicle
to start correctly. If the serial data password XXXXX the RCDLR to
the ECM is not within the Vehicle Security Status Message, the
vehicle will not start. If the ECM does not receive the same
password XXXXX the RCDLR as the last learned one, the vehicle will
not start.


Changing the Keyless Access with Push Button Start components


The design of the keyless access with push button start system is to
prevent theft even if the various theft deterrent parts change. The
parts that can no longer be changed without the possibility of going
into a tamper mode are:

lKey fobs
lThe engine control module (ECM)
lThe remote control door lock receiver (RCDLR)

If you replace the key fobs, the new key fobs must be relearned to
the RCDLR, Refer to Transmitter Programming (Domestic) or
Transmitter Programming (Export - Including Canada) in Keyless
Entry. When replacing a RCDLR you must relearn the existing key fobs
to the new RCDLR. The ECM must also be put in learn mode to learn
the new RCDLR password, Refer to Transmitter Programming (Domestic)
or Transmitter Programming (Export - Including Canada) in Keyless
Entry and Programming Theft Deterrent System Components (RCDLR
Setup) or Programming Theft Deterrent System Components (Domestic)
or Programming Theft Deterrent System Components (Export - Including
Canada) in Theft Deterrent. When replacing an ECM with a new GM SPO
part number, that has not learned a vehicle theft deterrent password
from any other vehicle, the ECM will learn the RCDLR vehicle theft
deterrent password XXXXX the first ignition cycle.

......................... I find it interesting that there is no communication with the RCDLR as it HAS to work with the power off.

Glad this happened in the off season.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[Crimson Pearl]

Fascinating!

 

[Popbigguy]

Fascinating!

I agree!! WOW!

 

[mpv96vette]

It's been a couple of days, any news?

 

[Phrede]

Dealer called today saying they found the problem and they were in the process of reprogramming everything. I hope that doesn't mean the roof too. Dealers seem to screw that up a lot. They claim that the lockpick caused the RCDLR to fail (negating the warranty). The RCDLR $318 was replaced. They did not know yet the amount of the labor, but said they spent a lot of time trying to figure it out. They said the flashing brake light was caused by the Wind restrictor module.

I'm not believing much of it. The 3rd brake light is driven by a separate output from what the Wind Restrictor is wired in to.

The Lockpick replaces the XM Module which goes to the radio.

It will be an interesting discussion when I pick it up. They called at 2PM to tell me all they had to do was reprogram it and would call me when it was done. More than 4 hours to reprogram it??!!

 

[mpv96vette]

Ouch, how did they find out about the lockpick?

 

[Phrede]

Ouch, how did they find out about the lockpick?

Don't know yet. That certainly is going to be a point of discussion where they have to prove to me that it caused the problem.

 

[ECurtis]

Don't know yet. That certainly is going to be a point of discussion where they have to prove to me that it caused the problem.

Good Luck Phrede. I hope that you really get to the bottom of this. Well, anyway at least they got it working.

 

[cubby558]

I call B.S. on the dealer. First it was the battery tender, now it's the lockpick and windrestrictor. (BTW the windrestrictor is a licensed GM product!!) I would fight them all the way on this. I would also find another dealer!!!!

Dealer called today saying they found the problem and they were in the process of reprogramming everything. I hope that doesn't mean the roof too. Dealers seem to screw that up a lot. They claim that the lockpick caused the RCDLR to fail (negating the warranty). The RCDLR $318 was replaced. They did not know yet the amount of the labor, but said they spent a lot of time trying to figure it out. They said the flashing brake light was caused by the Wind restrictor module.

I'm not believing much of it. The 3rd brake light is driven by a separate output from what the Wind Restrictor is wired in to.

The Lockpick replaces the XM Module which goes to the radio.

It will be an interesting discussion when I pick it up. They called at 2PM to tell me all they had to do was reprogram it and would call me when it was done. More than 4 hours to reprogram it??!!

 

[Phrede]

I got to drive my car today !

The explaination was that after finding a steady 7Vdc on the Class2 data line it was determined thru a process of elimination that it was being caused by the Digital radio receiver (XM). They then saw my Lockpick on the line and blamed it for causing the fault! They replaced the XM module and the problem was resolved. I would not have replaced it as I don't like the quality of XM and would gladly do without before spending $381 for the module. I do not know if the Lockpick caused the fault or not. I doubt it seriously. I was willing to plug it back in to duplicate the problem, if the XM module fried again no big deal, leave it out. The dealer said that would prove nothing and it was still not warranty.

They felt the flashing brake light was caused by the Wind Restricter lighting module and that is what drained the battery, but did not harm the module.

There was no convincing them otherwise and I paid the $1000 bill and left. After 5 miles the DIC displayed Charge System Fault. I returned to the dealer and the tightened the loose negative battery terminal.

After another 10 miles I noticed the horn does not work. The Charge System Fault message has re-appeared 5 or six more times. The car is currently back at the dealer.

The car is under the Certified Warranty until 14JAN2014. But I still had to pay $1000 to replace a module I don't want and don't feel was the problem. Hard telling what is going on now but I'm sure they will find someway that it my fault!

I really like my car, but this will be my first and last GM product. This is BS!

 

[mpv96vette]

It's time to contact the regional folks. This is BS. it's like replacing you radio like so many people do and saying that is the problem. Obviously it could not have been the lock pick or it would be fixed now.

Tell them repairing the XM was not an authorized repair it's an option anyway so it can be done without.

 

[arv09]

It's time to contact the regional folks. This is BS. it's like replacing you radio like so many people do and saying that is the problem. Obviously it could not have been the lock pick or it would be fixed now.

Tell them repairing the XM was not an authorized repair it's an option anyway so it can be done without.

an
I agree with Mark. Surely there are other dealerships in Northern KY/Cincinnati and I wouldn't take the car back there. We are going to take ours to a Chevrolet dealer in Winchester instead of the Cadillac dealer in Lex because Mark knows the service manager there. I also wouldn't have anything done without my prior authorization outside of warranty. Reminds me of a problem I had with a Hot Springs hot tub I had. Bought it in Indy and had problems about a year later in Lexington. Initially went to the dealer in Lex and they didn't want to cover anything because I hadn't purchased it there. Then it was because I hadn't kept the chemicals right, how do you argue that? It was just a nightmare and I ended up paying for all the repairs. So I won't buy another one but it was because of the dealer. Maybe you can find another dealer that will give you better service. Hate not to buy GM since it is American made and I like that.

 

[Phrede]

I've had even worse experiences with all the 3 other dealerships within 60 miles. At least this one did not put nicks in my roof.