Hey guys! im looking for some help troubleshooting a non working folding top on a 2004 cadillac xlr. can anyone provide known good counts for the position sensors when the top is fully closed or extended? Thanks for your help!
2004 XLR FOLDING TOP POSITION SENSOR KNOWN GOOD "COUNTS" - TROUBLESHOOTING
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ccclarke
Seasoned Member
Front Tonneau: CLOSED- 94 (Ref: 98) OPEN- 150 (Ref: 152)
Folding Top: CLOSED- 202 (Ref: 200) OPEN- 35 (Ref: 38)
Rear Tonneau: CLOSED- 109 (Ref: 114) OPEN- 190 (Ref: 186)
You should be able to view the reference counts stored in the FTC. The actual counts should be very close to that. After a Re-learn if they aren't, the sensor is suspect.
CC
Folding Top: CLOSED- 202 (Ref: 200) OPEN- 35 (Ref: 38)
Rear Tonneau: CLOSED- 109 (Ref: 114) OPEN- 190 (Ref: 186)
You should be able to view the reference counts stored in the FTC. The actual counts should be very close to that. After a Re-learn if they aren't, the sensor is suspect.
CC
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- #3
ccclarke
Seasoned Member
The position sensors can output counts from 0-255; the Reference Counts are the stored values when compared against the reported actual counts. All other sensors output a Status.
Other Messages reported on the DIC when the Folding Top Control Switch is pressed:
TOO COLD FOR TOP OPERATION
TOP MOTOR OVERTEMP "
Pump Motor Temp Sensor Status indicates the pump temp in C/F.
Pump Over Temperature Sensor Status indicates Overtemp/Normal.
For the Thermistor: As the motor warms up, the thermistor resistance decreases. The change in the 5vdc reference signal is monitored and the voltage drop is used to calculate the motor temp. (No counts displayed.) You need to monitor the motor temp with the Tech 2. If it doesn't change, the thermistor is suspect. Obviously a Class 2 message indicating TOP MOTOR OVERTEMP when the Folding Top Control Switch is pressed would point to the pump/thermistor being faulty if the pump has not been excessively run. DTC B3670 can be displayed if the temp is over the normal operating range (95C/203F).
You can subscribe to this site for $10 a day and download all the GM Service manual procedures you want:
RepairProcedures.com - Providing electronic service information for 1995 to current GM vehicles
It's been over four years since your first post regarding a non-working top. Has it ever worked?
Happy Hunting,
CC
Other Messages reported on the DIC when the Folding Top Control Switch is pressed:
TOO COLD FOR TOP OPERATION
TOP MOTOR OVERTEMP "
Pump Motor Temp Sensor Status indicates the pump temp in C/F.
Pump Over Temperature Sensor Status indicates Overtemp/Normal.
For the Thermistor: As the motor warms up, the thermistor resistance decreases. The change in the 5vdc reference signal is monitored and the voltage drop is used to calculate the motor temp. (No counts displayed.) You need to monitor the motor temp with the Tech 2. If it doesn't change, the thermistor is suspect. Obviously a Class 2 message indicating TOP MOTOR OVERTEMP when the Folding Top Control Switch is pressed would point to the pump/thermistor being faulty if the pump has not been excessively run. DTC B3670 can be displayed if the temp is over the normal operating range (95C/203F).
You can subscribe to this site for $10 a day and download all the GM Service manual procedures you want:
RepairProcedures.com - Providing electronic service information for 1995 to current GM vehicles
It's been over four years since your first post regarding a non-working top. Has it ever worked?
Happy Hunting,
CC
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It has never worked since I bought the car. It was wrecked when i bought it, so it spent some time in the body shop. I took it to my local dealership and they didn't want to mess with it unless i gave them a significant amount up front. I took it to a local automotive electrical shop. The guy is a Master certified L1 advanced level specialist tech with experience working on mercedes tops that are similar to the xlr. He just needed some known good numbers to work with. ive seen this guy diagnose and fix complicated stuff in the past so my hopes are that he can figure it out. I will update you when its fixed. thanks again!
ccclarke
Seasoned Member
If you need the pump repaired or upgrades to the folding top hydraulics: Cadillac XLR - Top Hydraulics, Inc
CC
CC
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- #7
Top too cold to move ??
After calibrating the top ..the dash displayed top too cold to move. Going to the pump removing everthing i found this gray and tan/white wires joined...??? Then on the connector someone cut them...is this how is meant to be or some prev owner was trying to bypass something
After calibrating the top ..the dash displayed top too cold to move. Going to the pump removing everthing i found this gray and tan/white wires joined...??? Then on the connector someone cut them...is this how is meant to be or some prev owner was trying to bypass something
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ccclarke
Seasoned Member
The grey and tan wires are the pump thermistor outputs. Someone tried to bypass the thermistor by tying them together outside the pump. I see two splices on the line with what looks like a smaller gauge wire between them. Can't tell if there's a really low-wattage resistor in there under the heat shrink.
Unfortunately, the wires are cut flush with the connector body, so a proper repair would need new pins crimped and installed. Your dealer will have these along with the right crimp tool.
It looks like there's another pair of splices below it, covered with green electrical tape and heat shrink which isn't flush with the insulation- which always makes me suspicious. I would take them apart and perform an inspection.
Wire and harness repair is very easy (if you know how) and just as easy to screw up (if you don't know how.)
CC
Unfortunately, the wires are cut flush with the connector body, so a proper repair would need new pins crimped and installed. Your dealer will have these along with the right crimp tool.
It looks like there's another pair of splices below it, covered with green electrical tape and heat shrink which isn't flush with the insulation- which always makes me suspicious. I would take them apart and perform an inspection.
Wire and harness repair is very easy (if you know how) and just as easy to screw up (if you don't know how.)
CC
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- #10
Bad thermistor??
After connecting the wires back and making it pretty it still marks too cold to move, maybe the thermistor is bad on this remanufacture pump that i purchase ,
Would adding a resistor work and bypass it .it didn't had a resistor before on d pictures. Or can it be fix or it requires a new pump
After connecting the wires back and making it pretty it still marks too cold to move, maybe the thermistor is bad on this remanufacture pump that i purchase ,
Would adding a resistor work and bypass it .it didn't had a resistor before on d pictures. Or can it be fix or it requires a new pump
ccclarke
Seasoned Member
Installing a resistor bypasses the protection the thermistor is designed to give, and I wouldn't recommend it. That would be in the same league as bypassing a fuse with a piece of wire. The short answer is, Don't.
If the pumps weren't susceptible to damage, the thermistors wouldn't have been included in the design, and remember - every designed component was selected from the lowest bidder that could meet the specs set forth by GM or CTS -who designed this top.
The thermistor in the pump is a NTC (Negative Temperature Coefficient) type. It puts out less resistance as the temp increases. There's a little math involved to determine the right part to source, so I'll need some time to look into it. I have an old pump in the garage I might be able to take some measurements on if I can connect a power supply to the thermistor and characterize it. If I get a few hours tomorrow, I'll gather the data and let you know what I come up with.
You earlier mentioned the top was re-calibrated. Did it run then?
CC
If the pumps weren't susceptible to damage, the thermistors wouldn't have been included in the design, and remember - every designed component was selected from the lowest bidder that could meet the specs set forth by GM or CTS -who designed this top.
The thermistor in the pump is a NTC (Negative Temperature Coefficient) type. It puts out less resistance as the temp increases. There's a little math involved to determine the right part to source, so I'll need some time to look into it. I have an old pump in the garage I might be able to take some measurements on if I can connect a power supply to the thermistor and characterize it. If I get a few hours tomorrow, I'll gather the data and let you know what I come up with.
You earlier mentioned the top was re-calibrated. Did it run then?
CC
- Thread starter
- #12
No it did not work since i got that code too cold to move but the pump runs the only thing i can move with the scanner is the rear tonneau and i can communicate with it and i get signal.
I did notice all electrical schematics refers to that thermistor wire as a gray and tan wire...however ..the wire its tan/wth???i wonder if thats an engineering typo ??
Anyways i didnt knew RadioShack is out of business so i have to order some resistors online :/
Also that gray wire that inputs or outputs 5v it divides to other 3 components so im thinking if i put a resistor it will affect the other 3..???
I did notice all electrical schematics refers to that thermistor wire as a gray and tan wire...however ..the wire its tan/wth???i wonder if thats an engineering typo ??
Anyways i didnt knew RadioShack is out of business so i have to order some resistors online :/
Also that gray wire that inputs or outputs 5v it divides to other 3 components so im thinking if i put a resistor it will affect the other 3..???
ccclarke
Seasoned Member
If you're planning to install a resistor in place of the thermistor (these are very different components) I don't recommend it.
(First Rule of repairs: DO NO HARM.)
I have disassembled the pump from the manifold, and removed the impeller housing, isolating the pump motor. I started writing a disassembly procedure along with editing the seventy pictures I took for inclusion. I'm still checking out the way the pump body is attached to the motor shaft (could be crimped in the middle) to try to open it up without destructively cutting the casing. There's a circuit board at the rear of the motor where the thermistor lives along with some other components. DC motor operation is pretty straightforward, but I need to figure out what components are inside, so if I have to cut it apart to do that, and verify how the assembly is sealed, I will. The long-term goal is to create a schematic, and build a 3D model to create a drawing of the seals, O-rings, bearing race, etc. for anyone who wants to rebuild their assembly at some point.
As for the wire color, mine are grey and tan as well.
When you measure the resistance across the thermistor, what are you getting?
CC
(First Rule of repairs: DO NO HARM.)
I have disassembled the pump from the manifold, and removed the impeller housing, isolating the pump motor. I started writing a disassembly procedure along with editing the seventy pictures I took for inclusion. I'm still checking out the way the pump body is attached to the motor shaft (could be crimped in the middle) to try to open it up without destructively cutting the casing. There's a circuit board at the rear of the motor where the thermistor lives along with some other components. DC motor operation is pretty straightforward, but I need to figure out what components are inside, so if I have to cut it apart to do that, and verify how the assembly is sealed, I will. The long-term goal is to create a schematic, and build a 3D model to create a drawing of the seals, O-rings, bearing race, etc. for anyone who wants to rebuild their assembly at some point.
As for the wire color, mine are grey and tan as well.
When you measure the resistance across the thermistor, what are you getting?
CC
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- #14
SOLVED !!!!! FINALLY THE CONVERTIBLE TOP IS WORKING AFTER COMPONENTS FLOODED
So after all this time my buddy finally spend time on the car becuz he was so busy and this car needs time and patience to troubleshoot it.
So when i purchase the car from and mention the whole compartment was flooded like 2 years ago on another post , i replace the modules and purchase this re-manufacture pump from (i forgot the website) then took it to the dealer and told me they dont mess with salvage vehicles titles so i gave up and considered it a manual convertible car , it only takes 2-3 minutes do it manually.
until i find out my high school buddy open an advance electronic mechanic shop , so i challenge him to fix this car, then ill realize if he is really as good as he says he is lol !!!
1)so we took it apart he fix the connector issue by connecting them with terminal connectors instead of one full connector
2)He found a position sensor behind the driver side door and said it need adjustment
3)He realize something about the Thermistor was sharing 5V with other components and according some book he read a thermistor should never share the 5V with any other components (we were reading videos and reading pages on a book he had) so he is still wondering how Cadillac manage to get it working he still wants to open the pump to see how it works.. anyway!!
4) so he told me that we can by pass the Thermistor and we relize that by jumping the wires was not good enough , (like someone in the past did it before and didnt work)
he wanted to add a resistor but since that 5V is attach to 3 posistion sensors again he dosent agree with that but he said its going to affect the other sensors by adding the resistor so no.
so we though about adding a throttle position sensor like any older cars like my 1992 firebird i used to have i had one in my tool box. he mention those control the voltage and he was going to put it between the thermistor wires and check it until the TECHII show some good counts that made the pump happy
after he did that the trunk work and we did the relearn and for the first time the convertible part finally work .
5) after the 3 open and close , all of a sudden hydraulic oil start dripping from the top and fell on my console i took it apart and ordered the cylinder and try to replace the seals but i dont know how they open this thing, its impossible to rebuilt it i open it with a grinder just to see how it works and how its sealed, so i order a new one and install it add hydraulic fluid to the pump and its working again i hope no more cylinders start leaking if they do ill go back to my manual convertible XLR
And thank you CCClarke for helping with those counts my friend said he need it another XLR to compare counts since the dealer dosent provide nothing about that.
So after all this time my buddy finally spend time on the car becuz he was so busy and this car needs time and patience to troubleshoot it.
So when i purchase the car from and mention the whole compartment was flooded like 2 years ago on another post , i replace the modules and purchase this re-manufacture pump from (i forgot the website) then took it to the dealer and told me they dont mess with salvage vehicles titles so i gave up and considered it a manual convertible car , it only takes 2-3 minutes do it manually.
until i find out my high school buddy open an advance electronic mechanic shop , so i challenge him to fix this car, then ill realize if he is really as good as he says he is lol !!!
1)so we took it apart he fix the connector issue by connecting them with terminal connectors instead of one full connector
2)He found a position sensor behind the driver side door and said it need adjustment
3)He realize something about the Thermistor was sharing 5V with other components and according some book he read a thermistor should never share the 5V with any other components (we were reading videos and reading pages on a book he had) so he is still wondering how Cadillac manage to get it working he still wants to open the pump to see how it works.. anyway!!
4) so he told me that we can by pass the Thermistor and we relize that by jumping the wires was not good enough , (like someone in the past did it before and didnt work)
he wanted to add a resistor but since that 5V is attach to 3 posistion sensors again he dosent agree with that but he said its going to affect the other sensors by adding the resistor so no.
so we though about adding a throttle position sensor like any older cars like my 1992 firebird i used to have i had one in my tool box. he mention those control the voltage and he was going to put it between the thermistor wires and check it until the TECHII show some good counts that made the pump happy
after he did that the trunk work and we did the relearn and for the first time the convertible part finally work .
5) after the 3 open and close , all of a sudden hydraulic oil start dripping from the top and fell on my console i took it apart and ordered the cylinder and try to replace the seals but i dont know how they open this thing, its impossible to rebuilt it i open it with a grinder just to see how it works and how its sealed, so i order a new one and install it add hydraulic fluid to the pump and its working again i hope no more cylinders start leaking if they do ill go back to my manual convertible XLR
And thank you CCClarke for helping with those counts my friend said he need it another XLR to compare counts since the dealer dosent provide nothing about that.
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Craiglindsay4
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How do You open one manually
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Craiglindsay4
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