Retractable top will not open

ccclarke · Sep 11, 2014

The front latching mechanism (which uses hydraulics to latch and unlatch, and switches to determine position) is pretty easy to tell when it's operating. I haven't visually inspected it, but it makes sense that with the round plug/cover removed, you should be able to see the SHCS rotate when the latch opens/closes.

The message your're seeing indicates either a switch is indicating it's in the wrong state, or a position sensor is out of tolerance and isn't registering the proper position of a Folding Top component. The easiest thing you can do that doesn't cost anything is visually inspect and jiggle the sensors to determine if they're securely fastened. The Front Tonneau position sensor is located between the seats in the trunk up forward. The Rear Tonneau Cover sensor is located on the left side Rear Decklid linkage. The Folding Top position sensor is located behind/to the left of the driver's side headrest under the vinyl cover.

Every six months or so, I get the same symptoms and message you're seeing. Everything works until the Rear Decklid is commanded to unlatch and raise. A five-minute re-learn with a Tech 2 clears the problem by re-setting the stored values in the FTC module. If the same problem happens more frequently, a sensor is probably failing and requires replacement.

If the position sensors are secure, then it's probably a good time to use a Tech 2 to examine the position sensor values and switch states. If they aren't defective, a re-learn would be the next step. If you don't have access to a Tech 2, a dealership should be able to isolate the problem and tell you what's wrong pretty quickly.

Worst case scenario: Your hydraulic pump is failing and doesn't have enough power to move the Folding Top. That would be bad.

CCC

kmariebox · Sep 11, 2014

Hi Al & welcome!

As the guys have stated above, you definitely need a Tech2 if you're doing this yourself. By no means am I questioning your skill level, ability or knowledge, but, I would strongly encourage you to take it somewhere to let a pro diagnose & repair it. This is a VERY common problem with the XLRs (all years)! I'm a PERFECT example as to why you should take it to a pro (and not just any Caddy dealership, but one with a Certified XLR Tech): As, I write this, I'm having the same problem with my top (2007). I called around and couldn't find a Caddy dealership that had a Certified XLR Tech, so I took it to a dealership that was close to home (they had a Tech2 scanner, but that apparently didn't make a difference with them). Not even an hour goes by and I get a call telling me it's the hydraulic pump... It didn't sound right to me, but I had no other options. So, $2200 later :banghead:

, I pick my car up and later that night, my top started acting up as always. I was pi**ed off

to say the least! Digging deeper into the internet and doing a little networking, I found a guy that is head of an XLR/Allante Club in Phoenix. I wrote to him, asking if he knew of any good mechanics. He wrote back right away with a name and number of a guy who is a CERTIFIED MASTER XLR TECH- Best yet- I check his reviews and they are ALL 5 STARS!

I am leaving my house in 10 minutes to take my car to him. Will be sure to let you know the outcome and wishing you the best of luck!
By the way, the best way to find out if a dealership has a Certified XLR Tech is to ask the Service Manager, NOT the Service Writer. They are clueless and will tell you all their techs are certified..... If you can't find one at a Caddy dealership, Google the words Certified XLR Tech or Master XLR Tech, along with your city & state. If there's one out there, it 'should' come up that way.- Kim

al williams · Sep 11, 2014

retractable Top will not open

kmariebox said:
Hi Al & welcome!

As the guys have stated above, you definitely need a Tech2 if you're doing this yourself. By no means am I questioning your skill level, ability or knowledge, but, I would strongly encourage you to take it somewhere to let a pro diagnose & repair it. This is a VERY common problem with the XLRs (all years)! I'm a PERFECT example as to why you should take it to a pro (and not just any Caddy dealership, but one with a Certified XLR Tech): As, I write this, I'm having the same problem with my top (2007). I called around and couldn't find a Caddy dealership that had a Certified XLR Tech, so I took it to a dealership that was close to home (they had a Tech2 scanner, but that apparently didn't make a difference with them). Not even an hour goes by and I get a call telling me it's the hydraulic pump... It didn't sound right to me, but I had no other options. So, $2200 later , I pick my car up and later that night, my top started acting up as always. I was pi**ed off to say the least! Digging deeper into the internet and doing a little networking, I found a guy that is head of an XLR/Allante Club in Phoenix. I wrote to him, asking if he knew of any good mechanics. He wrote back right away with a name and number of a guy who is a CERTIFIED MASTER XLR TECH- Best yet- I check his reviews and they are ALL 5 STARS!

I am leaving my house in 10 minutes to take my car to him. Will be sure to let you know the outcome and wishing you the best of luck!
By the way, the best way to find out if a dealership has a Certified XLR Tech is to ask the Service Manager, NOT the Service Writer. They are clueless and will tell you all their techs are certified..... If you can't find one at a Caddy dealership, Google the words Certified XLR Tech or Master XLR Tech, along with your city & state. If there's one out there, it 'should' come up that way.- Kim

Thanks you !!! :wave:

and please let me know the outcome !!!

al williams · Sep 11, 2014

retractable Top will not open

ccclarke said:
This sounds a lot like a Front Tonneau or Roof Position sensor problem. A Tech 2 will confirm. A Re-learn with a Tech 2 might fix the problem if the sensors aren't loose or faulty.

One of the key concepts related to troubleshooting the Folding Top system is knowing the order of the opening and closing sequences. When a step fails, the problem is often associated with the failed step or in many cases, the previous step.

The first step in either sequence is the windows have to be lowered. Indexing the windows stores their raised and lowered positions. If they aren't indexed, the next step (raising the Rear Decklid) isn't going to ever happen since the Folding Top Control module can't verify the windows are in the lowered position. Raising the Rear Decklid via a dedicated switch (on the dash or locally on the Rear Decklid) will still work whether the windows are indexed or not. (This is another trick to isolating Folding Top-related issues.)

In this case, the Front Tonneau raised as commanded, but the Folding Top did not. If the Front Tonneau sensor is out of tolerance, the next step in the sequence (the top moving) is halted by the Folding Top Control module. The module will not initiate the next step in the sequence until the requirements for the previous step have been fulfilled. The control module raises the Front Tonneau to what it thinks is the Raised position, but because the received (actual) values from the position sensor don't compare to the stored values, the sequence stops.

It isn't enough that the Front Tonneau raises. Its received sensor values have to be within the band that was committed to memory when the last re-learn was completed. A Re-learn is nothing more than a nominal Folding Top opening and closing sequence in which the sensor values are measured, written, & stored in memory within the Folding Top Control module.

This isn't the only condition that will stop the sequence at this point, but it's the most common.

Mod: Can this thread be moved to the Technical Discussion section please?

CC

I tried letting the top down in manual but still to no avail !!! :dunno:

ccclarke · Sep 12, 2014

Let's start from the beginning Al, to make sure I'm on the same page with you.

This is the abbreviated sequence that the top should be performing when opening:

1. The windows lower using the Express Open mode.
2. The Rear Decklid unlatches.
3. The Rear Decklid raises, the Front Tonneau Opens, and the Header Latch unlocks.
4. The Folding Top retracts and stows in the trunk.
5. The Rear Tonneau extends.
6. The Rear Decklid lowers.
7. The Rear Decklid latches.
8. The status of the Folding Top changes from Closed to Open, and a chime is heard.

At which step does it fail and how much of it does it complete? If I understand you correctly, it makes it through step 3. but nothing really happens at step 4. except frustration.

Does the Rear Decklid open and close normally using the dash switch, fob, and Rear Decklid-mounted switches?

CCC :wave:

al williams · Sep 12, 2014

retractable Top will not open

al williams said:
I tried letting the top down in manual but still to no avail !!!

The step fail at #4 and 1,2,and 3 are completed...the Rear Decklid do open and close normally.When the Folding Top was working i never heard a chime . :dunno:

al williams · Sep 12, 2014

ccclarke said:
Let's start from the beginning Al, to make sure I'm on the same page with you.

This is the abbreviated sequence that the top should be performing when opening:

1. The windows lower using the Express Open mode.
2. The Rear Decklid unlatches.
3. The Rear Decklid raises, the Front Tonneau Opens, and the Header Latch unlocks.
4. The Folding Top retracts and stows in the trunk.
5. The Rear Tonneau extends.
6. The Rear Decklid lowers.
7. The Rear Decklid latches.
8. The status of the Folding Top changes from Closed to Open, and a chime is heard.

At which step does it fail and how much of it does it complete? If I understand you correctly, it makes it through step 3. but nothing really happens at step 4. except frustration.

Does the Rear Decklid open and close normally using the dash switch, fob, and Rear Decklid-mounted switches?

CCC

something is wrong with this thread will not let me respond this is a test message :dunno:

Ok seem to be working now. Step 4 fail and 1,2,and 3 are completed....No chime is heard even when the Folding Top was working.The Rear Decklid do open and close normally.

ccclarke · Sep 12, 2014

Based on what you've described Al, I would recommend scheduling an appointment with your local Cadillac dealership. To properly troubleshoot and repair most Folding Top problems, a Tech 2 or PC-based diagnostic tool is required.

Ensure the dealer you choose has a certified XLR technician (who has taken the specific XLR courses, because standard GM certification is generic, and all techs have to be certified) to have this problem diagnosed. If you're lucky, the car will only need to have a Folding Top Re-learn procedure performed, which shouldn't cost very much.

Your XLR may have a faulty sensor or switch, or in the worst case, a failing hydraulic pump.

When the Folding Top completes a successful cycle, you should hear two chimes.

Let us know how it works out.

CC :wave:

Phrede · Sep 12, 2014

I've been following this thread and my biggest concern / clue to the problem is that the top appears to try to separate from the windshield but does not. Nor, when in this condition, can it be pushed up by hand from either the front of the top or the hinges. Just as if the latches were not releasing but the switch(es) were reporting that it was released. I'm thinking that even if the hydraulic pressure was low or the cylinder was faulty it could still be moved by hand if unlatched. This leaves a mechanical bind or, more likely, an issue at the latches and switch adjustment.

I agree a Tech2 is needed to troubleshoot and correct. Good luck and please let us know what is found.

kmariebox · Sep 12, 2014

Good morning!
As I mentioned in this thread yesterday, I was in the same predicament as Al... My top was intermittently giving me trouble, whether it was attempting to go up or down, it wouldn't complete. After paying $2k to the dealership for a brand new hydraulic pump earlier in the week and STILL having the same problem after picking my car up, I got lucky two days ago and was given a number to a Master Mechanic who also is XLR Certified- Hallelujah! :jump:

He had my car yesterday for about an hour and it is officially fixed- and for just $350! Seventy-five percent of my problem was just needing a SOFTWARE UPDATE! The other 25% was a quick & simple adjustment to one sensor. My best advice to you would be to find an XLR Certified Tech and first & foremost, have them check the software... If you are in need of the 2009 update, GET IT! If there are still issues afterward, then move forward with checking sensors, etc. He told me the reason there was a software update for the XLR in 2009 (if I understood it correctly), was not only to update other things, but that when the XLRs were manufactured, the parameters of the Folding Top Control (FTC) module were set too low (at 4). The update has increased those parameters.

NOTE: Performing a relearn procedure on the FTC module will reset all of the reference parameters and the top will usually function again but the root cause of the problem will not have been corrected.

I am now headed to the dealership to have a one-on-one with the service manager... They initially wanted to charge me $1900 for the part alone (hydraulic pump), which was $565 ABOVE LIST PRICE ($1335). I called another dealership within 5 miles and they quoted me list price! I called my dealership back and told them to match it or forget it... They matched it. They never had a correct diagnosis and the problem was not ever resolved by them. Also, when I asked for my old pump back, they were unable to comply for whatever reason. I will either wind up with a full refund or they will wind-up with reviews on the internet that will indeed effect their reputation. Wish me luck!

al williams · Sep 12, 2014

retractable Top will not open

al williams said:
I tried letting the top down in manual but still to no avail !!!

Ok, will do CC... thank you and all the others for the "GREAT HELP" !!! :thumbsup

ccclarke · Sep 12, 2014

Phrede said:
I've been following this thread and my biggest concern / clue to the problem is that the top appears to try to separate from the windshield but does not. Nor, when in this condition, can it be pushed up by hand from either the front of the top or the hinges. Just as if the latches were not releasing but the switch(es) were reporting that it was released. I'm thinking that even if the hydraulic pressure was low or the cylinder was faulty it could still be moved by hand if unlatched. This leaves a mechanical bind or, more likely, an issue at the latches and switch adjustment.

I agree a Tech 2 is needed to troubleshoot and correct. Good luck and please let us know what is found.

--Without being there to measure how far the Folding Top moves in step #4, (probably not much or at all) anything I suggest on this end is little more than educated guessing. I agree with you and think the most likely problem is something in step #3 isn't happening. Faulty or out of calibration Front Tonneau sensors are the culprits in similar problems.

The first rule of troubleshooting, (and brain surgery, for that matter) is, "Do no harm." Forcing the top manually if the latch is still engaged (it takes a fair amount of force to move it) or a solenoid in the hydraulic manifold if stuck could end up causing more harm than good, so I think at this point having a pro take a look at it is best.

Good luck!

CC :wave:

BusaMan · Sep 13, 2014

First of all, Kmariebox, it's great that you got to the right tech, and got the problem really fixed. :wave:

[RANT MODE: ON]

Second, there is NO REASON that the dealer couldn't return the pump they supposedly replaced... NONE!

ATTN: Caddy Customer Service Lurker. You should get an investigation going on that bad dealer. Ripping the lips off of a customer for the price of the part; faulty diagnosis, not returning replaced part(s), etc. GM can't tolerate this kind of poor quality service, IMHO.

I suggest you really look the pump over, and verify that it's brand new. Call me paranoid, but it wouldn't be the first time a dealer charged for a part they didn't really replace.

As a former motorsports factory-authorized Suzuki/Kawasaki/Arctic Cat/Cannondale dealer, I am well aware of the myriad of opportunities a dealer has to bilk customers. Unless the owner of the dealership insists and verifies that service issues are being honestly and competently addressed, it would be pretty easy for unscrupulous Service personnel to pad the bills on parts and labor. My dealership achieved a 96.5% Customer Satisfaction Rating, and won the Suzuki Super Service Award for the District (7 states) by focusing every day on treating our customers right. I feel that Cadillac dealers should represent the highest level of integrity, and not have incidents such as this arising.

[RANT MODE: OFF]

FWIW

Tim

kmariebox · Sep 14, 2014

Thanks for the concern & support! I actually had some 'GOOD' come out of Friday's meeting with the Service Manager. My arrival and request to see him was not expected by him whatsoever… No one there even knew I was upset/concerned. I laid everything out on the table- I stood my ground FIRMLY, yet I was very polite & professional about everything. He swore to me that when my car threw the code (my hydraulic pump was bad), he was standing right there and witnessed it. Then I asked him why I wasn't able to get my old pump back. He looked bewildered and told me he'd be right back... Within 5 minutes, he came walking back into his office with my old pump. Apparently, the service writer 'assumed' it had already been disposed of since almost a week had gone by. He asked me to please take it to Danny (the XLR Master Tech) and have him look it over. He said Danny will then be convinced it needed to be replaced and ‘was replaced’. I felt much better over all of that.

Before I could say anything more, he then started apologizing up & down about the attempt of charging me $565 above list price for the pump. He stated he wasn't sure if I was quoted for different a part in error or if the parts guy just tacked on some extra $ for the hell of it. Either way, he felt bad and insisted on making it up to me, as he didn't want to lose my business or ding their reputation. He wound up giving me 2 free complete detail services worth $300 ea. and window tint package for free- all of which are now noted on my customer profile with no expiration date.

I'm very satisfied with the outcome. I did let him know upfront they will still have my business, but when it comes to anything more involved than an oil change or accessories, I will be going to my new XLR Master Tech in Scottsdale.

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voodoocad · Aug 20, 2019

Recently burned up the thermal sensor in the motor/pump. All stated discontinued part. No one could find it. Read the forum and went to tophydraulicsinc.com and there it was. Have dealership diagnose, takes less than an hour.

voodoocad · Aug 21, 2019

Can someone tell me why the motor/pump went bad? (overheated badly) 15 amp fuse was still in tact, top down sequence had to be complete, as the car would not be able to be placed in drive during the operation.

Retractable top will not open

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