top wont go up

[airmike]

I decided to take a trip to try out a cts-v about an hour away. I suppose my car (xlr-v) got jealous because I backed it out of the shop and cleaned the wheels, then put the top up. Only it wouldn't go up. Trunk lifted an inch or so and went right back down. The dic says top motor overheat.

I just bought a tech2 recently, but don't know if it has updates needed to handle the top. I also admit to being a total novice with it. I would like any help for diagnosing this, and possible ideas for repair. Its has never been wet in the trunk area and lives inside, so no water intrusion. I have read several searches and suspect thermistor in the top motor? CCC, you probably can answer this question, (is the thermistor on the motor replaceable? (by me)

I know the xlr tech locally, by name only. Have said hi. If I am in need of updates, which I probably am, would I likely be able to drop my scanner off and they could take care of that. Of course I am planning on trying that, unless better ideas arrive here.

Having said that, I am a novice with the tech2, I have programed the fobs for my sts, and cut out cylinders for diagnosis purposes. Thats it so far. I intended to play with the tool on my other vehicles a bit before I ruined my xlr practicing ..Is there a possibility of that?

The car is inside the dealers building, while I tested out the cts, over the weekend. Now I need to bring it home, for me or the local dealer to work on.

 

[ccclarke]

AirMike,

If I read your post correctly, you have two problems. A top that won't cooperate and a Tech 2 that you are unfamiliar with. I don't know if you have a set of shop manuals, but they might go a long way to curing both issues. Without a set of manuals, your Tech 2 is just a high-tech scan tool without any way to interpret the results in a meaningful way.

What rev is your Tech 2 software?- it's displayed when it powers up.

As far as having the Tech 2 updated, if the programming on the 32M card is relatively new, it should be close enough to get the job done. The Tech 2 is obsolete as of several years ago. GM dealerships have switched over to a PC-based system. That being said, the Tech 2 is more than sufficient to get the job done, since the XLR went out of production five years ago . . . --if you know how to use the Tech 2 in conjunction with the shop manuals, you're good to go. If your nodding acquaintance of a tech can get your the latest updated RAM firmware via GM, start plying him with his favorite beer and become his new best friend.

I don't know where you live, but if it's hot enough, the hydraulic pump/motor will not run, and throws a DIC message stating it's reluctance to cooperate. It's either too hot, or the thermistor that senses temperature could be defective. The pump could be binding and getting hot, with the thermistor sensing the temps as too high to operate. A lot of things can cause the problem, but usually, it's the most basic, like a bad thermistor. The most successful techs keep an open mind as to what can cause a problem, but concentrate on the most likely cause. (Marriage councilors operate this way too, but with a much lower success rate.)

Can you replace the pump? I don't know what your technical/comfort level is. It's not really hard to do, but you'll need a set of O-Rings, hydraulic fluid, and a new pump to make it happen. Oh yeah, and lots of cash too. Before I'd get medieval on the pump though, I'd scan the Folding Top System and see what codes the Tech 2 throws out. The pump is not cheap, so you don't want to go there unless you absolutely have to.

I have a stupid question to ask: Is your pump well drain clear? Are you absolutely sure there has been no water intrusion in there?

99% of the time, sensor problems are to blame when the top misbehaves. Bad hydraulic pumps are rare, but I'm one of the unlucky ones who can tell you they do occur from experience. I say pump, because the thermistor/pump are combined in one assembly. A $1 part (thermistor) can cost you over two grand (pump assembly with labor.) This is another example of the dark side of capitalism, but it is what it is. Try operating the system in the morning, when it's cooler to generate some more symptom recognition clues. If it works when it's cooler, the thermistor may be to blame.

It's tough to troubleshoot a problem remotely over the internet, so please bear with me. I'll help you as much as I can, but every clue you furnish makes it easier for anyone trying to help out. I repair pinball machines as a hobby, and it's the same thing. The more I connect the dots with symptoms, the easier it is to isolate the source of the problem.

So here's your homework assignment: Run a scan, and post the results. Try moving the top when it's cool outside. Knock that out and report back, and we'll see where the symptoms lead. I hope it's something easy and cheap.

CC

 

[airmike]

version 32.008

The car lives inside unless being driven so no water ever. I have checked the drain hole in the past anyway. I wondered if the heat effected it, I had it outside on 100 degere day for an hour before taking off. After arriving at Joplin dealer, to drive a cts-v, I asked them to keep it inside for the weekend, which they did. No change pump motor over temp. First attempt, trunk lifted an inch or two. Second attempt no lift at all. Same today. (next day) and inside cool temp shop.

Hooked tech 2 up and get codes B3670 pump motor temp senso
B1327 device power 1 circuit low

I thought there was a way to read sensor numbers with the scanner? I didn't get there if so.

I have done many car related repairs and am sure I can manage the pump, assuming I get started in the correct direction. I do have an aftermarket extended warranty, though I have heard many don't want to cover the top. I can't say about mine, but I am going to the dealer and let them call and see. If I can find my paperwork! I have moved recently and this may be a chore. Maybe wording is critical, any ideas ahead of time? I also have a pair of manuals on cd, however the newer one doesn't seem to agree with my computer. I will look at the one that goes through 05 and see if I can find the xlr in it.

 

[ccclarke]

The 1327 DTC refers to an out-of-band voltage fault, identified via the Driver Door Switch. (<9 vdc, or > 16 vdc.) Test/operate the switches, clear the DTC, and scan again.

The 3670 DTC means the pump stalled -possibly due to linkage binding, (if you're real lucky) an overheated pump, (if you're not) or a faulty thermistor. The thermistor needs to sense an overtemp >203 degrees, which is pretty warm. If the car has been sitting idle in a relatively cool space for a prolonged period, (for the pump to be cool) and it still reports back that it's got a 3670 DTC, when the pump hasn't been energized, that leads you back to the defective pump/thermistor. One can mimic the same fault as the other, but if the thermistor is reporting the pump is hot when you know it isn't, then the thermistor is more likely to be bad, but the pump is still suspect. The only way to know for sure is to measure the thermistor properly. You can visually inspect the pump connector to the FTC module and measure across the pump windings for a short too.


Have you cleared the DTCs and run the diagnostic routine? (otherwise it takes fifty engine ignition cycles to clear DTCs out if it isn't a hard fault.) If not, I'd try that before running the hydraulic pump and see what the Tech 2 reports.

CC

 

[airmike]

Update on my top. I finally got it to the dealer Thursday for diagnosis. They diagnose the pump as bad, and called it in to my warranty company. Since then the warranty co. sent a representative to the dealer to check their conclusion. He said there is a tsb on it, and they don't want to pay for a pump until that is taken care of. (Not that they wont pay for the pump) After he left, the shop found that it is not pertinent to my problem.(it is about a latch problem) The shop has resent the claim and awaiting response. I will update as I get info.

 

[airmike]

CC yes I did clear the codes and rerun the scan. I very much appreciate your help and will be calling back on you if the dealer doesn't get the job done for me.

 

[tyrone]

latch problem

My top wouldn`t rise every time due to the latch mechanism not releasing the catch on the top. Replaced the latch, and no more problems. GM Parts direct had the best price for the part. A piece of cake to change out.

 

[05 GRAND DADDY]

Thx Tyrone! It's always good to know about the easy fixes for future problems. Cruz'On Topless of course!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dan & Wendy
"05 GRAND DADDY"

 

[CadillacCustomerService]

Update on my top. I finally got it to the dealer Thursday for diagnosis. They diagnose the pump as bad, and called it in to my warranty company. Since then the warranty co. sent a representative to the dealer to check their conclusion. He said there is a tsb on it, and they don't want to pay for a pump until that is taken care of. (Not that they wont pay for the pump) After he left, the shop found that it is not pertinent to my problem.(it is about a latch problem) The shop has resent the claim and awaiting response. I will update as I get info.

Hello airmike,

I apologize for the inconvenience this has caused but it appears the dealership is being extremely cooperative. If you should have any questions or would like my assistance please let me know.


Katie O.
Cadillac Customer Care

 

[airmike]

Tyrone, I would guess that is the problem the tsb was for, though not my problem.

Today I hear from them again, and the warranty co. has stated (per my shop) that they will pay $1197 for the pump and the shop is stating $1380 or so for their source. The shop also says the warranty wont pay for diagnosis, or bleeding the system after replacement. Cant Imagine a brake job that doesn't pay for bleeding, seems pointless to even do a job in that case .

In any case I am just getting home at 8:30 pm so can't do any phone contact until tomorrow. I will be contacting the warranty co. tomorrow.
tyrone
tyrone

 

[airmike]

Todays update: Work not started yet, waiting on new pump (ordered thursday). The warranty co. has ok'd the job. They have agreed to pay for the bleeding now. I will be out the deductible, and the difference in the price they can get the pump for and the price my shop is getting it for, and the shop rate for diagnosis. I suspect I could have got the pump wherever the warranty co. is listing it for and saved the difference. The shop says they are getting one thru gm. (can't say that is better than any other company in this case). I am keeping the old pump for some fun (destruction) most likely, to see if I can get it apart to repair myself.

diagnosis--------------$85.95
deductible ----------- $100
difference in pump-----$200 roughly

Having read on this forum of warranty co. not covering the tops, I will say I am happy how this is going. I studied warranties for a time before getting this one. I went through carchex and Steve Bruno. I will get a finders fee if anyone decides they wish to use this co. and gives me for reference. Mine cost $2600 for 72mo/75,000 miles. Royal Administration Services.

I would give a phone number to anyone interested

 

[airmike]

Good news, the xlr is back and working! Total bill $1395.78, and my part after warranty paid is $376.25..

I did keep the pump assembly and have taken the motor apart. Next stop my buddy that repairs electronics to tell me if he can get the motor to work again. There is a little circuit board in there that must be the problem. CC have you looked inside the motor? After using an ohm meter on it I think I might have found the culprit, but wont know until my buddy gets a look.

Now to clean it up. Its been sitting for a month collecting dust and a couple small spots from the repair process.

 

[ccclarke]

I kept my original (bad) pump in a box with my extra headlights, and other XLR parts for a few years, and then tossed it when doing house-cleaning before I moved to the East coast last year. While it can be taken apart, I wasn't sufficiently motivated to break the crimp seal on the back of the pump. What was bad on mine was the thermistor. The plastic, black pump cover removes easily enough. I've attached a few pictures.

CC

 

[Batmobile]

This is incredible ccclarke! Thank you so much!
I had an issue with my pump, and posted on a newer thread. Gonna need to investigate my thermistor wires today, using your write up! Many thanks!

I kept my original (bad) pump in a box with my extra headlights, and other XLR parts for a few years, and then tossed it when doing house-cleaning before I moved to the East coast last year. While it can be taken apart, I wasn't sufficiently motivated to break the crimp seal on the back of the pump. What was bad on mine was the thermistor. The plastic, black pump cover removes easily enough. I've attached a few pictures.

CC

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