XLR Road Trips in Europe

[rodinoma]

Ive decided to launch a new thread on driving my 2009 XLR throughout Europe - mostly in Italy but also in France, Switzerland, Austria and Germany - and maybe even Spain. Ive attached some photos of the car (these have already been posted elsewhere on this site) The first 3 photos are of the car stopped at a highway reststop on the A4 Austostrada from Ventimiglia -> Genova. The next two are on via della Conciliazione which leads up to St Peter's Square in Vatican City in Rome. And the last photo is of the car nestled next to my CTS-V and STS-V in the garage in Rome.

More to follow.....

 

[Crimson Pearl]

I'm sure that I speak for most, if not for all here, that we would love to see as many photos as you care to post.


I do have one question for you, though. How is the XLR viewed or received in Europe?

 

[rodinoma]

I'm sure that I speak for most, if not for all here, that we would love to see as many photos as you care to post.


I do have one question for you, though. How is the XLR viewed or received in Europe?

Europeans go crazy for the car because it has a shape that you do not see in Europe. They know its American but can't quite figure it out. I get stopped all the time especially in Italy and France - the two richest countries in Europe with the lowest sales of Cadillacs (taxes are high - yearly registration taxes for a car with an engine above 4.o litres in France and Italy is $11,000) and gasoline is $9/gallon). But the two countries with the most appreciative connoisseurs and the most refined aesthetic eye are of course the French and the Italians. The Germans give the car its due because they have come to realise how good late model Cadillacs (and Corvettes) have become but dont rave about it in quite the same way - they are teutonic and not passionate Latins.

The Italians are always impressed when I tell them it is a Cadillac and always say, "Che Bella". It is a shame that General Motors has so far proven to be incapable of figuring out how to sell Cadillacs in Europe - last year, in the 28 country EU of 500 million people they sold less than 600 cars!! And even in the US they cannot seem to persuade many buyers to even look at Cadillacs - two sides of the same coin.

 

[ald42]

Looking forward to seeing your postings and thanks, Al

 

[05 GRAND DADDY]

That registration tax is jaw dropping, I think I hurt my chin on the table!!!!! Lol


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Dan & Wendy
"05 GRAND DADDY"

 

[rodinoma]

That registration tax is jaw dropping, I think I hurt my chin on the table!!!!! Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dan & Wendy
"05 GRAND DADDY"

It is sometimes hard for us American drivers to understand how lucky they have it. We are unlucky in having dangerously low speed limits but the average citizen can by a car with a 6.o litre V8 and pay as little as $300 a year to run it. In Europe you need to be seriously affluent and up to buy a car with such a big engine which is why Camaros and Corvettes dont sell in big numbers. They are cheap cars in the constellation of big engines but if you have the dosh to buy big you will buy a Ferrari or Aston Martin - think about it - why would you buy a $100k Corvette and $11k a year in registration charges + insurance + running costs - five years later that Vette is worth $40k and you are still paying $15k a year to run it - see the problem?

 

[xlrlist01]

Europeans go crazy for the car because it has a shape that you do not see in Europe. They know its American but can't quite figure it out. I get stopped all the time especially in Italy and France - the two richest countries in Europe with the lowest sales of Cadillacs (taxes are high - yearly registration taxes for a car with an engine above 4.o litres in France and Italy is $11,000) and gasoline is $9/gallon).
[snip]

I asked a friend who lived and worked in Paris about this and he didn't recognize the tax as an annual thing. In France there is a substantial tax in the first year, like a gas guzzler tax though $11,000 sounded high (he didn't know for sure). There is no annual tax at all after that in France, it is all in the gasoline, which is very approximately E1.7 a liter (and around $1.40 is E1.0, hence $9.00 to the gallon, there being 3.8 liters in a gallon). However, if the vehicle is company owned, then there are large annual costs, he didn't know how much (other than they are large!). It is a few years since he was there and things do change, but he hasn't heard of it and probably would, especially at that sort of rate, as he attends car rallies and the like still. No information about Italy at all.

 

[rodinoma]

I asked a friend who lived and worked in Paris about this and he didn't recognize the tax as an annual thing. In France there is a substantial tax in the first year, like a gas guzzler tax though $11,000 sounded high (he didn't know for sure). There is no annual tax at all after that in France, it is all in the gasoline, which is very approximately E1.7 a liter (and around $1.40 is E1.0, hence $9.00 to the gallon, there being 3.8 liters in a gallon). However, if the vehicle is company owned, then there are large annual costs, he didn't know how much (other than they are large!). It is a few years since he was there and things do change, but he hasn't heard of it and probably would, especially at that sort of rate, as he attends car rallies and the like still. No information about Italy at all.

Your friend is partially correct. I checked again. The eco tax on the Cadillac XLR would be 8k euros ($11,000) for the first year but then there are also annual registration taxes that are paid to the region and to the state - and I believe those run a few thousand euros a year. Plus gasoline at $9-10/gallon.

 

[xlrlist01]

Your friend is partially correct. I checked again. The eco tax on the Cadillac XLR would be 8k euros ($11,000) for the first year but then there are also annual registration taxes that are paid to the region and to the state - and I believe those run a few thousand euros a year. Plus gasoline at $9-10/gallon.

Could you provide your source of information? I have looked up a English explanations and they are fairly clear, in France initial registration varied from eg E200 to E3,000 in 2010 (given the state of the French economy E8,000 in 2014 is where it is at, but there is more to pay than just the E8,000, see below!) and there are zero annual taxes thereafter. There are registration taxes if you move registration district, and given the Gallic attitude to registration, I can imagine that these are obscure, complex and impenetrable! I gather that the French do have a lot of toll roads and the tolls are costly, on top of the high price of gas. Annual vehicle taxation ended in France in 2001 (the vignette) combined with a major programme of building high class toll roads. (This latter is on more than one site.) If you Google the subject, you can easily find information from those who have moved to France for example. The information I have found does confirm the high cost of a Company owned vehicle too (based on CO2 emissions), but I can't find a site that confirms an annual (recurring) tax for any private vehicle. Just curious.

Here are what seem to be the French registration taxes (if I am reading this right, you have to look up the 'class' (and age because different rules apply to older vehicles) of a vehicle based on its emissions to get a group number), the total 'gas guzzler' tax is only paid at first registration and appears to be the sum of five sections (and yes, there is the E8,000 for the worst polluters in 2014, only E2,600 in 2010)) of the tables and then if you move it gets re-calculated based on the charge rate of the new district compared to the previous district and whether or not there are discounts to be had (but you don't pay that whopping gas guzzler tax again, the rates are in the low E100s - and it is only if you move)- complex or what?):
Coût de la carte grise et taxe additionnelle, tarif carte grise

 

[xlrlist01]

Could you provide your source of information? I have looked up a English explanations and they are fairly clear, in France initial registration varied from eg E200 to E3,000 in 2010 (given the state of the French economy E8,000 in 2014 is where it is at, but there is more to pay than just the E8,000, see below!) and there are zero annual taxes thereafter. There are registration taxes if you move registration district, and given the Gallic attitude to registration, I can imagine that these are obscure, complex and impenetrable! I gather that the French do have a lot of toll roads and the tolls are costly, on top of the high price of gas. Annual vehicle taxation ended in France in 2001 (the vignette) combined with a major programme of building high class toll roads. (This latter is on more than one site.) If you Google the subject, you can easily find information from those who have moved to France for example. The information I have found does confirm the high cost of a Company owned vehicle too (based on CO2 emissions), but I can't find a site that confirms an annual (recurring) tax for any private vehicle. Just curious.

Here are what seem to be the French registration taxes (if I am reading this right, you have to look up the 'class' (and age because different rules apply to older vehicles) of a vehicle based on its emissions to get a group number), the total 'gas guzzler' tax is only paid at first registration and appears to be the sum of five sections (and yes, there is the E8,000 for the worst polluters in 2014, only E2,600 in 2010)) of the tables and then if you move it gets re-calculated based on the charge rate of the new district compared to the previous district and whether or not there are discounts to be had (but you don't pay that whopping gas guzzler tax again, the rates are in the low E100s - and it is only if you move)- complex or what?):
Coût de la carte grise et taxe additionnelle, tarif carte grise

I found it, there is an annual tax only if your vehicle emits too much CO2, it could be a large figure, looks like E4xthe CO2 g per km. You really don't want to get into French 'fiscal horse power', based on steam horse power... If you don't have a CO2 figure (and your import might not), then it is based on exceeding some fiscal horse power rating. It is safe to assume that an XLR exceeds the fiscal horsepower limit!

It looks like this annual tax was under a E200 flat rate until very recently, maybe 2014 is the first year of operation?

So, I am answered, the annual figure isn't huge for an import without a CO2 rating?, a few (low) hundred euros per year (E300 in 2014), but if you do have a CO2 rating then it could be heavy, easily over E1,000 per annum. Makes an imported Cadillac more attractive, but not one sold locally? Maybe the import duties are so high as to render importing one impractical.

An observation is that other pollutants don't seem to count, it is all on the CO2 rating, so diesels will win out, irrespective of any other fumes they might emit. This might explain why the French seem to drive so many diesels.

 

[Crimson Pearl]

Looking forward to seeing more pictures!

 

[rodinoma]

I found it, there is an annual tax only if your vehicle emits too much CO2, it could be a large figure, looks like E4xthe CO2 g per km. You really don't want to get into French 'fiscal horse power', based on steam horse power... If you don't have a CO2 figure (and your import might not), then it is based on exceeding some fiscal horse power rating. It is safe to assume that an XLR exceeds the fiscal horsepower limit!

It looks like this annual tax was under a E200 flat rate until very recently, maybe 2014 is the first year of operation?

So, I am answered, the annual figure isn't huge for an import without a CO2 rating?, a few (low) hundred euros per year (E300 in 2014), but if you do have a CO2 rating then it could be heavy, easily over E1,000 per annum. Makes an imported Cadillac more attractive, but not one sold locally? Maybe the import duties are so high as to render importing one impractical.

An observation is that other pollutants don't seem to count, it is all on the CO2 rating, so diesels will win out, irrespective of any other fumes they might emit. This might explain why the French seem to drive so many diesels.

Ok below is from one website -

Number of fiscal horses (CV)
(in horse-steam to be correct)Annual tax1-3€7504-6€1,4007-10€3,00011-15€3,60016 and more€4,500

Hard to read above but the annual CV fiscal horses CV for a car with more than 16 Chevaux Fiscal is EUros 4,500 a year ($6k) plus the first year malus of Euros 8k - ($11k)

<header style="background-color: rgb(17, 60, 144); padding: 12px 7px 7px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif;">[h=1]CADILLAC "CTS-V 6.2L V8 BVA RWD 19"""[/h]</header>

[h=3]CADILLAC[/h]"CTS-V 6.2L V8 BVA RWD 19"""
Carrosserie :Berline
Taille :Grande berline

Puissance admin.50CV
Puissance max.415 kW
Boîte de vitesseAutomatique (A 6)
CNITM10CDCVP0004082
Norme EuroEuro 5

Energie

ES : Essence sans plomb 95


Consommation
Urbaine 21.3 L / 100 km
Extra-urbaine 10.7 L / 100 km
Mixte 14.4 L / 100 km



CO[SUB]2[/SUB] (g / km) 336
Classe CO[SUB]2[/SUB]

Coût énergie
(15 000 km / an) 3,629 €


Ces émissions de CO[SUB]2[/SUB] impliquent :
> à l'acquisition
Un malus de 8,000 € pour l’achat d’un véhicule neuf (ou la location sous certaines conditions[SUP] 10[/SUP])
Une taxe additionnelle de 444 € pour un véhicule d'occasion
> chaque année
Un malus annuel de 160 € pour un véhicule possédé ou loué par un particulier
Une TVS de 9,092 €


Polluants (g / km) [SUP]4[/SUP]
Monoxyde de carbone (CO)
Hydrocarbures (HC)
Oxydes d'azote (NO[SUB]x[/SUB])
HC + NO[SUB]x[/SUB]
Particules

≤ 0,416
≤ 0,053
≤ 0,019
-
NC

Seuil norme Euro 5
1
0.1
0.06
-
0.005*

*Moteur à injection directe d'essence mélange pauvre seulement​

So you can see above on the Cadillac CTS-V (not much different for the XLR) the malus is Euro 8k plus an annual malus of Euro 160 plus the CV tax of 4,500 plus a few more bits and bobs.

 

[Stella]

Wow that's just reassures me that we live in the best country in the world. Cheers mate

 

[rodinoma]

Wow that's just reassures me that we live in the best country in the world. Cheers mate

Yes we do - we just don't have their automotive freedom!!

 

[Stella]

Yes we do - we just don't have their automotive freedom!!

What automotive freedom would u be talking about. Sounds like across the pond the cars are more,taxes are more,up keep is more,gas is more. Only thing I see better is you don't have to pay import tax on my Ferrari or koenigsegg. And you guys have some nice scenery. Country roads are terrible I've been told. You have all the freedom you want on a old country road.

 

[rodinoma]

What automotive freedom would u be talking about. Sounds like across the pond the cars are more,taxes are more,up keep is more,gas is more. Only thing I see better is you don't have to pay import tax on my Ferrari or koenigsegg. And you guys have some nice scenery. Country roads are terrible I've been told. You have all the freedom you want on a old country road.

Well I believe you have been slightly misinformed - Europe has the best highways, motorways, autobahns, autostrade, autopiste and autoroutes in the world - the drivers are much better than the US, the speeds are much higher or non-existent; the country roads are a blast to drive and you dont have to worry about the coppers pulling you over - Europe invented the concept of Grand Touring and it is still alive and well there. When I get into any of my cars over there I have a feeling of freedom that I dont have in the US - Enzo Ferrari once said he did not understand why Americans bought his cars since they could never drive them the way they were intended to be driven.

You should take your Ferrari and Koenigsegg to Europe one summer - it will spoil you for driving in the USA. It happened to me. At the end of the day I dont mind paying $10/gallon for gas when I can just hit the pedal and cruise at speeds above 200 kph - drive across 5 countries in a day - stop for great meals at any number of excellent restaurants and then bed up at a fine Relais & Chateaux hotel. Its what driving is all about.

 

[xlrlist01]

Ok below is from one website -

Number of fiscal horses (CV)
(in horse-steam to be correct)Annual tax1-3€7504-6€1,4007-10€3,00011-15€3,60016 and more€4,500

Hard to read above but the annual CV fiscal horses CV for a car with more than 16 Chevaux Fiscal is EUros 4,500 a year ($6k) plus the first year malus of Euros 8k - ($11k)

[snip]


So you can see above on the Cadillac CTS-V (not much different for the XLR) the malus is Euro 8k plus an annual malus of Euro 160 plus the CV tax of 4,500 plus a few more bits and bobs.

I'm with you all the way to (but not including) the E4,500. My reading (and I could well be wrong) is that the E4,500 is only if you don't have a CO2 reading. If you do have one, then it is based on the CO2 rating, which above 250 g/km is E4 per. At the 336 g/km that comes down to E1,344 pa, still fierce though.

The other thing I can't work out is how it applies to older cars. The above is certainly correct for a new car, ie one registered for the first time in 2014. Where I haven't been able to get the translation certain is what the rate is for say a 2008 XLR. It could be that less fierce rules apply, because my reading of the 'contract' with the French people from the 2001 change was no annual tax, it is all in the gas and the tolls! Suddenly putting a vast tax on a car that might only drive a few low thousand miles a year (and was at most E300 a year previously) is well, 'Government in action'!

 

[xlrlist01]

Well I believe you have been slightly misinformed - Europe has the best highways, motorways, autobahns, autostrade, autopiste and autoroutes in the world - the drivers are much better than the US, the speeds are much higher or non-existent; the country roads are a blast to drive and you dont have to worry about the coppers pulling you over - Europe invented the concept of Grand Touring and it is still alive and well there. When I get into any of my cars over there I have a feeling of freedom that I dont have in the US - Enzo Ferrari once said he did not understand why Americans bought his cars since they could never drive them the way they were intended to be driven.

You should take your Ferrari and Koenigsegg to Europe one summer - it will spoil you for driving in the USA. It happened to me. At the end of the day I dont mind paying $10/gallon for gas when I can just hit the pedal and cruise at speeds above 200 kph - drive across 5 countries in a day - stop for great meals at any number of excellent restaurants and then bed up at a fine Relais & Chateaux hotel. Its what driving is all about.

Europe is heavily 'policed' by robot ie cameras. The speed limit in Germany is around 85mph. Yes, they have a notional 'unlimited' allowance on some autobahns, but you are 'on your own'. I gather that French toll roads are policed by both cameras and the distance/time of entry/exit, I would assume that this is true of most (if not all) jurisdictions with tolls. The attitude to alcohol and driving is hardening too, with effectively zero limits being discussed. Don't even think of using a cell phone.

 

[rodinoma]

Europe is heavily 'policed' by robot ie cameras. The speed limit in Germany is around 85mph. Yes, they have a notional 'unlimited' allowance on some autobahns, but you are 'on your own'. I gather that French toll roads are policed by both cameras and the distance/time of entry/exit, I would assume that this is true of most (if not all) jurisdictions with tolls. The attitude to alcohol and driving is hardening too, with effectively zero limits being discussed. Don't even think of using a cell phone.

Yes you are correct in part - in Germany the official limit is no limit except where limited. So as you drive on the highways of Germany you can find yourself going from unlimited to 120 kph to 100 kph to 80 and back up as conditions and built up areas change. But the fact is it is the only place you can legally drive your car at its designated engineered limit for kilometer after kilometer. As for France there are many speed cameras and cops, as you said, that will flash you just before the toll booth and pull you over. However the speed limit of 130 kph but it can be pushed to 190 kph (about 120 in funny money) for a ticket of 90 euros. Anything above 190 kph and then the fine goes to 5k. And if you are driving anywhere in Europe with a car with a foreign license plate you don't really have an issue.

But as for driving while impaired it is a much bigger problem in the US - as you probably know since your facts are pretty accurate - the road mortality rate in the US is anywhere from 1/3rd to 1/2 more than in Europe. And you can use a cellphone anywhere in Europe as long as it is hands free - no problem with that either. I actually dont think we disagree - you seem to be saying that Europe is moving in the general direction of the oppressive US driving scene and it is in part but I don't think it will ever get as bad. And Italy is still a country where the roads are alive with great driving.

 

[xlrlist01]

[snip]
I actually dont think we disagree
[snip]

No, we don't disagree one jot. My information is waaay out of date, interesting to get recent experience.